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okay three I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me hakara Mustafa standing in for
George Galloway and me gatri Australia's
offshore detention regime long condemned
by critics for its unbending punitive
action yet lorded by the country's
lawmakers as the key factor in stopping
the migrants is facing unprecedented
pressure just this week yet another
Asylum Seeker died died when he set
himself Al light after being held for
over 3 years on the facility his death
comes after a series of suicides and
acts of self harm involving several
hundreds of men and women detained on
the
island the situation has become so
disturbing for human rights Advocates
that the Papa New Guinea Supreme Court
ruled last week that the Detention of
the men on Manus is unconstitutional and
illegal and ordered the closure of the
Detention Center
the PNG government has said it would
shut the center and has asked the
Australian government to find
alternative arrangements for the men
detained there but the Australian
government has said the detainees are
the responsibility of the PNG this
political limbo which mirrors the
uncertainty in which these Asylum
Seekers are left in for several months
and often years means human rights
groups are finally looking to take the
government of Australia to task Amnesty
International has been one of the
facility's most vocal critics and we're
happy to have with us today Kate shuty
AI South Pacific expert to help us
understand this little known Island in
which so many abuses are currently
taking place KY welcome on board the
Sputnik now Katie um it's very difficult
to understand the legal framework once
again in which these uh facilities
operate so who runs them because it
seems to be everyone is sort of throwing
back at each other is it the Papa New
Guinea government or is it the
Australian government
well what we're seeing is the Australian
government play the blame game but the
reality is on the ground no one is under
the illusion that that they're not in
control of running these centers so we
have one Center in uh papan guini on
Manis Island and we have another one in
Naru they are of course operating these
centers with the cooperation of those
governments and those governments share
some responsibility for those centers
and the human rights abuses that have
happened there and that's exactly what
Pap Guin Supreme Court found last week
can it Force Australia to act well they
have said that the center should be
closed and the PNG government should be
working with the Australian government
what we do know from Australian Senate
inquiries in their Parliament is that
they are bankrolling these court cases
to defend these legal centers they are
the ones making the day-to-day call
calls on running the center um the court
case also said they're the ones erecting
the fences they're the ones employing
the contractors they're the ones making
all of these arrangements so I don't
think Australia can Sher its responsibil
ities by saying it's entirely up to Pap
guini or Naru that is not the case at
all um primarily they bear the brunt of
this responsibility because they
forcibly put people under guard onto
planes and send them off to these small
L countries or locations um against
their will none of those detained on
Papa guini asked to be there and many of
those that I've spoken to had no idea
where they were being sent at the time
um that they were being bundled onto the
plane and forcibly removed from
Australia so these are immigrants mostly
from the Middle East who arrive on the
shores of Australia by boats and then
they send them to either papon guini or
NAU these are two separate sovereignties
but Australia has got a deal with them
to to to host them or to uh I mean to uh
keep them in the centers and then settle
them so what we do know is the the
refugee and migrant situation in
Australia is very different to what's
happening in the Mediterranean now
around 90% of those arriving by boat in
Australia because such an arious journey
to get there um are actually found to be
refugees most of them are getting on to
boats from Indonesia or flying through
Malaysia and then to Indonesia um and
then hopping on a boat to get to
Christmas Island which is very close to
Indonesia and is an island far off
Australia's western Australian Coastline
um once they get there the first thing
that the Australian government is doing
is very promptly sending them on planes
to Pap guini and Naru and they've had
this policy yeah automatic since 3 years
ago they were doing um medical screening
but they weren't telling these people
what the outcomes of those medical tests
were very few few people were stopped
from being transferred on the basis of
medical grounds of course um and what
we've seen as an outcome of this is that
um the extraordinary pressure the
psychological trauma that these people
are suffering um we've seen on manace
that um there was violence in February
uh
2014 locals actually attacked the center
and killed someone who was convicted um
actually two Pap guineans were convicted
of that person's murder just in the last
few weeks and in the last week we've had
another person die on Naro um because
they've set themselves on fire and the
Australian government is continuing to
Sher their responsibility to the those
people um that they're sending to these
irland countries to be detained to be
punished to be deterred from ever
thinking that they might get to
Australia and seek a better life but the
stories are coming out as you say
harrowing I mean people who have
swallowed razor blades there have been
cases of mass rape and child abuse as
well is the is Australian public opinion
aware of what is being done almost in
its name given that the their elected
officials are actually greenlighting
these operations I mean I think the
Australian um modus operandi with these
centers is out ofsight out of mind
they're hoping that these stories don't
come to light in the public because it
does put extraordinary pressure on the
government um but we've seen a complete
turnaround in terms of the campaigning
on this issue in Australia especially
since um February when um a number of
babies 37 of them who many of whom have
been born in Australian hospitals um
they lost the court case to stay in
Australia but there was a massive um
public campaign to try and keep them
there and eventually we saw the minister
of immigration concede that they
wouldn't be sending them back um you
know what we have to understand is these
people are often coming from situations
of torture or trauma before they arrived
in Australia um as refugees they have
very particular psychological and
psychosocial needs um there are not
permanent um psychiatric care facilities
in the whole of Papa Guinea much less on
Manis Island which is very remote same
with Naro um you know Mental Health Care
is very limited in that environment and
the extraordinary pressure of having
your life put on hold for 3 years and
not being able to rebuild it that's
extraordinary and when you talk to the
people who were there on Manis Island as
I've done um you know they feel this
mental anguish over the fact that their
families are still in highrisk
situations in Afghanistan in Pakistan in
Syria sometimes and they cannot even
contact their families I understand many
of these refugees are actually no
educated and they were very skilled
highly skilled and there they're treated
as prisoners is it Australia's going
Toano Bay I mean some people have made
that reference I mean I think what we
have to remember when we make that
reference is these people haven't
committed any crime they're not being
accused of terrorism related offenses
all they have done is come to Australian
Shores seeking protection of the
Australian government under the refugee
convention they don't have that
opportunity to do that elsewhere in the
region because there's not many
countries that have signed the refugee
convention
and instead of treating them humanely
and that is an option open to the
Australian government still um this
policy has designed to act as a
deterrent um you know the slogans we
hear is we want to save lives at Sea um
but that's speculative you know um you
can't deter people who are genuine
refugees fleeing persecution from
risking their lives and hopping on a
boat um to try and find something better
and and that's what sort of missed in
this public debate is is there is no
Humanity in the the current system and
the way it's set up can they escape
because I mean I'm I'm guessing given
the conditions in which they're living
they're probably thinking that maybe
even returning to the war zones is
probably better than and remaining in
this situation can they actually leave
if not obviously towards Australia but
at least go back or try and find Refuge
elsewhere yeah well what we found when
we um visited Manis Island and talked to
the people detained there as well as
those running the center is that there
was an extraordinary pressure on those
people to return home including syrians
who have been detained under these
policies now the UN has said as a matter
of course we know the massive Exodus of
refugees going from Syria um these
people are still locked up by the
Australian government which is quite
extraordinary so um you know you have
this situation of the Australian
government trying to say they're not
actually refugees when they many of them
are being found to be refugees those on
Manis Island um it is a
type facility on a an Pap guinean army
base um there is extraordinary tensions
with the locals if they were to leave
that Center as we've seen with the
violence um in Naru there are detention
centers and we saw them throw open the
doors of the detention centers late last
year in an attempt to defeat a legal
case in Australia very similar to the
one just running Pap guini what that
means is they have freedom to move
around the island during the day
but Naru when you think about it it's a
small island 21 Square km so that's
twice the size of heo airport um where
are they going to go it's a singular
Island are they allowed to work um they
are but um until recently when the
refugee Center was up and running 90%
unemployment in in naaru so we're
talking impoverished basic standard of
living across the Pacific um you know
there is high levels of employment now
because the massive influx of
contractors coming to the detention
centers but there is no real economy for
Naru um and even in the last couple of
years there's been um suggestions that
the country is on the brink of
bankruptcy it was entirely ad dependent
exactly this is exactly the irony behind
it because Naru and papini only agreed
on towards his detention centers because
Australia had compensation had a big a
compensation but there's not much of
that
well I mean um there is money going into
development in Naru and papa Guinea and
um in in this age of cutting foreign aid
um they've managed to survive without
with very little Cuts because um they've
opted to um take on refugees on behalf
of Australia but that in and of itself
that they're willing to contract um
these camps and these cruel and
torturous conditions that in of itself
attracts liability for the governments
of pap new guini and Naro and what we're
seeing now after this court case is um
compensation claims are already being
filed in the papini court around 3 years
of unlawful detention one thing that's
very difficult to comprehend in this on
this side of the planet really is that
how come Australia which is such a vast
country which is very uh resource Rich
you know mining and everything fish you
know coasts why is does it have such
stringent immigration laws it could
accommodate it could be very
accommodating for for many immigrants
obviously not all but at least not be as
as as strict as it is essentially we are
a migrant Nation I mean we started by
people coming to Australia it was a
settled country even though we don't
formally recognize that and I think
within the Australian identity there's a
fundamental failure to recognize that is
where we come from that is who we are
and that is how we have built such a
strong Nation as we stand now what we've
seen in recent years is is the
discussion has changed from being an
issue about um a wealthy and productive
um nation that includes diversity and
migrants and people coming from all
walks of life um that debate has shifted
and you can see that in the changing of
the name of immigration to border
control and you know that's a shift in
relation to the global Dynamics and the
discussions around terrorism versus
freedoms and you know how these people
are perceived um um for a very long time
um refugees and migrants I think has
been a hot political issue in Australia
so there's no easy um political or
policy sort of arguments um you know
there's no doubt that harsh policies
have been popular with voters in the
past um but what we need right now is
strong leadership and the only humane
way forward is to let those people come
to Australia we're talking just over
2,000 people now in terms of those on
Manis Island and those in Nao and to say
we can't accept that when we have a
humanitarian intake of over 13,000
refugees a year of course we can manage
that Kate thank you very much that's a
really interesting subject thank you
thank you coming up next yet another
British institution goes bust leaving
thousands of workers pensions in limbo
stay
tuned welcome back to Sputnik one of
Britain's Best Loved High Street stores
has announced it was filing for
bankruptcy British home stores better
known as BHS had suffered previous
periods of uncertainty until a certain
Philip green bought the chain for
reported 200 million in
200000 at first the flamboyant Tycoon
appeared to bring the alien stores back
in the black but last year it was
announced that BHS was struggling and
green sold it to a Consortium with no
retail experience called retail
acquisition
for1 in the wake of the collapse green
who was kned for services to the
business community in 2006 has come in
for intense criticism for selling the
business when its defined benefit
pension scheme was running a substantial
deficit and for the fact that his family
received more than 400 million of
dividends from the businesses in the
years after the chain was bought this
week business secretary SJ Javid ordered
the on solvency service to probe unique
circumstances of the collapse of the
88-year-old retailer how can a business
going so well collaps so rapidly how is
it possible to sell a chain of stores
for a quid what future for the thousands
of workers and more importantly what
happens to the pension fund who better
than a senior Financial reporter
specializing in distressed debt and
leveraged Finance Hussein deiri to shed
light on the situation Hussein welcome
to the show thank you for you follow
these situations very closely did you
see the collapse of BHS actually coming
well there were signs already of uh the
company becoming weaker from last year
and that is why uh for example it was
sold for a token price of1 pound when
you sell a company for1 pound obviously
it doesn't vote well it shows that there
are some uh underlying issues but uh the
company actually tried to uh address the
situation and as recently as last month
they went I mean in March end of March
they went through a company voluntary
Arrangement or a
CVA uh in a court through which they
renegotiated all their um rental
agreements uh obviously brought the
rents uh significantly down as well as
the and also they were given the
opportunity to cancel some of those
rental agreements and on top of that
they were uh given the possibility to uh
impose a 94% haircut by that I mean a
reduction of already realized uh rent
liabilities so uh their landlords
basically gave them a discount for what
was due up until that point so at that
point people thought that thanks to the
CVA they had managed to negotiate that
difficult situation and come out of it
but then again only about a month later
they had to file and it shows that
basically the CV was not enough to
address the situation but one thing
that's sort of almost should have raised
alarm Bells is the fact that the
Consortium that bought it for a nominal
fee didn't have that much expertise in
the retail sector so if you're actually
going to save a business which
specializes in retail surely you'd
address it or you'd sell it to somebody
who knows who's good in the business and
who could therefore rectify the previous
F so shouldn't that have been a a sign
from a seller's point of view that is
not necessarily an issue because I mean
uh What mattered I guess for the
previous owners was to basically free
themselves from the liabilities quite
enormous liabilities that uh were
attached to this business and the fact
that the there was someone who stepped
forward and expressed willingness to
take the business together with its
liabilities I mean that should be good
enough for a seller now you that is a
question that I guess should be
addressed to people who have invested in
that vehicle which took over the company
and for the moment as far as I know
there hasn't been an explanation to that
I appreciate that for a straightforward
sale you know there doesn't need to be
any investigation really strictly into
who the purchaser is but there is a
pension F fund involved in this major
transaction so surely perhaps the
pension Regulators should have seen or
looked into who the purchaser was and
therefore whether they could be able to
address the issue should the business go
down as it has that's true but there are
two points to consider here first of all
the pension scheme was already in
deficit before the
2015 uh sales transaction happened so
it's not like it was completely healthy
beforehand secondly um for the pension
regulator to step in and block a uh
transaction or app against it they need
to have really strong reason reasons cuz
remember that by doing that they are
actually can opposing a transaction
between two willing parties so uh they
really need to have very strong evidence
that this is going to fall through which
I guess at the time was not clear and
even a few months ago it wasn't clear
that the situation could be as drastic
as it is now where we have a pension
deficit which could According to some
estimate arise to round 571 million
behind all this stands a man sir Philip
green who um is willing to be questioned
uh about uh all the what what has
happened but we all know it's actually
the woman behind it yeah Mrs Green so
can you tell us a bit about that well
basically this uh the BHS uh as long as
it was it belonged to Sir Philip green
and uh um it was part of bigger group
which also the Arcadia Group which owns
dor Peres um and several other
well-known retail uh High Street
retailers so um and it's true that uh
the man director of that uh larger group
was with with the wife of Sir Philip
green we are not talking about any
crimes or anything like that at the
moment what power do the MPS and this
pran actually have on on green we have a
suspicion perhaps is this public opinion
that there is something slightly immoral
that's going on but definitely not
illegal but what is the worst case
scenario for Philip green do the MPS
probing him do they have any form of
pressure other than just perhaps
removing the sir from his first well
firstly um from what I hear sir Philip
green has said that he might be willing
to contribute to the pension deficit
pool which shows that there is an
element I mean there is a connection
maybe felt at least uh between the
actions of the previous management with
the current situation and that is of
course uh something that could be
plausible given that during the 15 years
prior to the sales transaction around
580 million pound were taken out of this
company uh under different forms uh
whether dividend be it um
loans be um rental payments because some
of those properties were owned by
shareholders of the uh former
shareholders of the company
so and I heard figures around uh up to
80 million pounds that uh the former
owners may be willing to chip in but
then there are also reports about uh the
per pension protection fund uh looking
to pursue this case for obtaining up to
around2 200 million pound in uh and they
have means of pressuring him to do that
uh well it's not as uh I can't really
say what the mechanism would be but
there is definitely once the government
investigation uh because bear in mind
that this investigation will be carried
out very rapidly normally you have to
wait three months for the administrators
to come up with the report but here uh
Mr Javid has said that they will not
wait for that so it clearly shows that
there is a will from the government side
okay to look at into this closely and
they have said they will leave no Stones
unturned in terms of misconduct by
current or former managers so clearly
there is a path but then I guess because
as we discuss we it's not really it
can't really be said that something
illegal has happened here although the
situation may look controversial because
jobs and pensions are involved of course
uh I think at the end it's difficult to
give a you know clear answer about the
mechanisms by which some money can be uh
received from former owners I'm afraid
we'll have to leave it there thank you
very much for saying was a
pleasure so we've heard from our experts
so now let's see what the Twitter sphere
has to say go on g what's going on well
um about the first topic on the miners
Island uh Australia's Guantanamo Bay
which I must be honest came as a shock
news to me uh we asked what should
happen to the men and women actually
held at Manis Island Detention Center
Marilyn Shephard says freedom and
protection and massive
compensation and Daddy Cool says
Australia is an immigrant white
supremacist State like the USA and
Israel the men need to be questioned
humanly in Australia it has to be I mean
the conditions are absolutely abominable
and there's very little coverage here in
the west obviously but even in Australia
there seems to be abs AB lack of
knowledge of the situation what is going
on I know they managed to really make it
make this whole Refugee thing into a
success story that no boat has arrived
in Australia and no one knows about what
happens to those refugees actually
exactly and actually it affects only
2,000 people which could be really
easily settled in Australia it's
disgraceful it's disgraceful uh and
about BHS Uh Kevin Maguire says BHS
Tycoon Philip green has agreed to be
grilled by MP's on business committee
but he does not want his billionaire
wife Tina to be questioned and Alexander
necrosoft says if anyone thinks Philip
green will be held responsible for BHS
collapse well they might as well think
that taxpayers money is spent wisely
well it's interesting that he doesn't
want his wife to appear I mean what else
doesn't he want to do does he get to
pick and choose what he has to what he
presents and that's all the tweets for
today which brings us to to the end of
the show with me hakara Mustafa and me
gri but you can stay in touch with us
through Twitter at rtor Sputnik or on
Facebook Sputnik on Russia today until
next week it's been marvelous
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